Some might say that Howard Suber, renowned UCLA professor emeritus, is one of the biggest secrets inside the gates of the Los Angeles filmmaking community. It wasn’t until 2006 that he pulled back the curtain for the first time when he published his debut book. “For years students in Howard Suber’s legendary classes at UCLA begged him to write a book,” Alexander Payne, director of Sideways and The Holdovers, wrote in The Power of Film, “Now that he has delivered it, filmmakers, scholars and anyone else with a serious interest in film can rejoice. A fascinating and thought-provoking work.”

The book is now a docuseries—and it’s also long overdue. Executive produced by two of Suber’s former students, Doug Pray and Laura Gabbert, The Power of Film was a labor of love for nearly a decade. Wanting to give back to their mentor, they stepped in to help his dream of widely sharing his knowledge via television a reality.

The duo discusses the process of bringing this docuseries to Turner Classic Movies, selecting films to feature in each episode, and the most important things they learned from Howard’s classes at UCLA.  (This interview has been edited for clarity.)

One thing that stood out to me about this series is that it’s unique in the way it turns a mirror on TCM viewers and cinephiles who are usually accustomed to documentaries about the technical aspect of filmmaking or deep dives into their favorite films. Is it something you thought about while conceptualizing the series? 

Laura: We were really just trying to capture Howard’s main teachings and scholarship were and although Howard has taught many classes in his lifetime on all sorts of aspects of filmmaking it was really this particular scholarship on structure and story and character and why certain movies stay in our memories, and looking at why that is. So what really drove the making of the series is wanting to capture this group of lectures for 50 years at UCLA. 

Doug: The series reflects his teaching and his teaching is on that deep psychological very human very universal level of what makes us storytellers. Why do we like good stories that are well-told? Even 10,000 years ago—what were the best stories around the campfire in the cave? He’s really good at getting into that that, and applying it to movies, of course. 

I loved how the series connected to mythology and storytelling over time and connecting it back to film. Were there any specific kinds of mythologies you and Howard explored to include in the series in episode one?

Laura: In a typical Howard Suber class at UCLA, they would run for three and a half hours, sometimes four hours, with an intermission. In those classes, he would digress and get into more detail about certain myths or Shakespeare or whatever. We just knew this had to stay condensed and suitable for television.

Doug: It feels like every episode he does go back to something, like he’ll talk about Antigone or, in episode three, he’ll talk about narcissism in the myth of Narcissus and Echo. He definitely dips into some of those things but it doesn’t get overly academic. He didn’t want to overdo it, and neither did we in the series.

We tried carefully to not make this feel like an academic lecture. It’s not really educational programming. It’s not really a masterclass. It’s really just the history. We certainly don’t really get into the celebrities and lives of past great movie stars at all. He mentions names fondly. 

It’s sort of its own thing. It really just comes from his teaching. This is why we liked his class, and this is how it was. Although, [the show zips] a lot quicker. And it has all the amazing film clips.

I’m just surprised this is the first time Howard Suber is bringing his expertise to TCM. It does feel long overdue. How did this project come about?

Laura: Well, we agree with you. [laughs]

Howard had always thought about these particular lectures, that they would work for general audiences. He always felt like it would be like, a PBS series and it was always a bit of a dream of his, I think, to do it. I think there were some starts and stops.

And about eight years ago, Howard started sharing his frustration a little bit that it hadn’t happened yet, and Doug and I said, “Let’s just make it happen. Let’s just do it independently. Let’s just start somehow.”

And we did. That’s also why it took so long—because we had to do it in bits and starts, and we did it on a shoestring budget, which is quite unusual for a television series being made independently without a buyer in your back pocket already. 

Doug: And regarding TCM, Howard loves TCM, and of course honors and teaches all about classic movies. I mean,

He used to teach critical theory classes and everything else, and I’m sure he taught some history classes as well, like the history of various directors. I don’t actually know all the other classes he taught, because I just focused on this one, and I was his TA. And actually so was Laura, at the same class which was called “Seminar on Film Structure.”

But he doesn’t get lost in what I think a lot of cinephiles get lost in, like, “Did you hear so-and-so did this on fourth take of this one thing in the 1958 film?” [laughs] He’s filled with great stories, and he does have plenty of stories like that, but he doesn’t do it with the enthusiasm of a fan. 

He’s always interested in digging deeper. And saying, “Well, I don’t care so much about that actor, I just want to know why does this work?” 

I don’t know if you had a chance to see the other episodes, but he does talk about actors, he does talk about persona. he does talk about great heroes in the past. It’s not at all like he’s opposed to that, but he’s not one of those writers or teachers who just totally gets into the history, like a fan. He’s not quite his style.

There’s a lot of well-known films featured so far in The Power of Film, including The Godfather, Citizen Kane, The Graduate, Thelma & Louise, etc. What was Howard’s process of selecting films to be featured in the series?

Laura: He usually taught towards those types of movies in his classes. So, often times, when he was teaching a class would also talk about contemporary films too, films of their day. That’s what was born out of his lectures, those are the those are the films that he would talk about, and for the most part, that’s what we found. When we use clips from those movies, there are times where we’ll be referencing something a little bit broader, or a pattern that happens in certain memorable popular movies. And then the three of us would sort of discuss which clips to include what would what would work and what would be something contemporary, something old. We would sort of fill in the little spots where he talks about things in more general terms. But mostly it was it was, he really thought long and hard before we recorded this before he did the actual taping on a stage, which movies he would highlight. And most of those are the same ones he taught in his classes. 

Doug: And in stepping back from that, all of the films except for very contemporary films—which he does like to talk about—most of the films are all under the category of popular and memorable. It can’t be just a huge box office hit. And it can’t just be some really cool film that’s memorable that maybe only critics love. It has to be universally popular and universally memorable across generations.

With the more modern films, something like Moonlight or, you know, I could name three or four other more contemporary films. He’s just hoping and guessing that those echo exactly what he’s teaching. They are perfect representatives of the kinds of films that have lasted generations. And so he’s just looking at that as, well, “I’m going to talk about modern films too.” Partly because he also doesn’t want to just be cordoned off into that classic movie ghetto, just only ’50s movies and ‘30s. He really wants this to be for all audiences.

Did you get a chance to speak in some of your favorite movies that always make you feel?

Laura: Little bit? 

Doug: Yeah, Midnight Cowboy. Actually, for some weird reason because he loves Midnight Cowboy, but it hadn’t made it into the final cut. And I remember like we were cutting episode one and we’re just like, “God, we need one more example of somebody having a feeling that leads to action.” And I was just suddenly like, “Okay, what’s what’s the absolute greatest film that’s not in the series yet? OH, Midnight Cowboy! [laughs]

Which is funny because there’s this huge great documentary out right now all about Midnight Cowboy. But anyway, that’s always been one of my all-time top favorite films, like top five list for life. And so I was like, “Oh, God, we got it.”Just for a few seconds. [laughs]

And Laura, were there any that you got to sneak in as well? 

Laura: I didn’t try it. I was just thinking.

Doug: Yeah, I know one. 

Laura: Really?

Doug: You snuck into the last one. You didn’t sneak it in, but we were talking about comedy and characters and the one on the airplane. The scene of the airplane. But with the crazy bridesmaids. 

Laura: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s right.

Yes, it may not that that’s one of my all time favorite movies. But it was a good example of what we were doing—and it was contemporary. And I do like that movie very much. 

Doug: Which is really funny. Definitely a great scene. 

I think we were talking about great scenes, like how certain scenes just stand out. Like, you remember a scene, you might watch a whole movie. And there’s some the one scene that you just go, “Oh, you know that one scene and everyone talks about it?” I think it was an example of that. 

Laura: Yeah, I think that’s right. That’s right.

Doug: It is true.

I also noticed, there were some beloved, and you can see popular movies that are made outside of Hollywood that are noticeably missing from this series. Was there a choice to just focus on Hollywood?

Doug: Just American films. You know, call it a bias, but It’s not a bias at all. He has studied popular and memorable American films. 

Of course, he’s well versed in the French New Wave and, like, film noir. He could go on and on about European films. He’s very studied. He’s a very smart professor. But that’s what he studied.—that’s his thing. 

I think it’s part of the charm of his teaching, and hopefully, something that’s interesting about the series is actually like he was saying, turning the lens on [the audience.] Like, no, we’re actually going to talk about Star Wars. You know what I mean? We’re actually gonna talk about The Godfather yet again, we’re gonna talk about all these like, amazing films—

E.T., Jaws, and we’re gonna talk about some of these great, massive American movies, but not in the same way that we usually talk about them. We’re not just going to fawn over them and say how great they were, we’re going to talk about why they work, why they became great movies. And so it’s a different emphasis. But that’s all. 

Laura: Yep. I think that’s right. And again, he’s really interested in the audience psychology. It’s not that The Godfather was lauded when it came out, but why do we why do we still watch it? Why do students still talk about it? That’s what he’s really that’s what he’s really delving into. 

Both of you are Howard Suber’s former film students at UCLA. What are some things that each of you learned in his classes that resonated with you all this time?

Laura: I would go back to the overarching thing that I bring into my day-to-day documentary filmmaking is the audience psychology. You’re telling a story, and you’re immersed, and you’re trying to figure out how to tell that. And at the same time, you need to always be thinking about what is the audience experiencing? And how am I going to take them on this ride? 

And it might be a much more subtle story than The Godfather but the same principles apply.

Doug: Yeah, I would say very much the same thing. And also, he doesn’t formally talk about film structure within this series. But almost everything he talks about, falls under the umbrella of film structure, like the order of things, the pacing of things to see a character rise. He talks in episode three beautifully about how if a character starts out like this in act one, but then by the end of the film, this character has to come up to here, and the character who was here who has all the power has to go here. [Gestures highs and lows.]

I mean, there’s different examples, but I think film structure which applies by the way to documentaries—Laura and I are we’re documentary filmmakers—but it applies to everything. It applies to short films and documentaries, it applies to [screenwriting], it applies to commercials. I’ve done some nonfiction-style commercials, like 30 seconds long, and I’m still applying the same principles of, “Well, wait a minute, we need this character, and this character needs to feel more like they’re trapped. And this is the solution.” It feels cheesy as hell to say that, but I really mean it. 

All good storytelling is based on a lot of these principles and these structures that have existed forever, kinda. And, yeah, it’s subtle, but I think I’ve applied his lessons to everything. And of course, I could say that about other great professors I’ve had, he’s not the only mentor I’ve ever had. But he really was one of the most profound teachers in terms of filmmaking and storytelling that I’ve ever encountered.

I mean, it’s no wonder that he keeps coming back to UCLA, even after retiring all this time. It’s just incredible.

Laura: Yeah, exactly. I think the other thing I was gonna just say about one of the things that always I took away from Howard’s class is that he’s always encouraging you to really ask, what is this film about? Not “What’s the topic?” Not “What happens?” But what is it about? 

Is it about an exchange of powers? Is about an exchange of gifts? Why is it resonating? And how do you define that in terms of what is the film about? 

I think that that’s really, if you’re just making even a documentary about very straightforward topic, let’s say, a social issue. You still have to ask yourself that question, because there should be a deeper answer to that question. 

Doug: Yeah, I mean, people are always saying in our business, like when you’re either pitching a story or reading a script, or talking to someone about a documentary idea, or anything, there’s always discussion of like, “well, what’s it about?” And people say, “oh, it’s about a football team and how they overcome.” No, no, what’s it really about?  Forget all the surface, I don’t care. “It’s about musician who wins a Grammy” No, what’s it really about? “Oh, it’s really about this person’s need for this.”  It gets deep into the motivation.

And that’s when you’re starting to really figure out a story, and that helps you structure, and edit if you’re making a documentary that helps you, if you’re writing a screenplay it helps you go, “Oh, I know what has to happen now.” Those limits are actually helpful to a writer, if that makes sense. 

It’s huge. Just thinking about all of that seems important, so important to so many storytellers in Hollywood. And it’s so incredible that you’re bringing this series to TCM [for future storytellers.]

Laura: Aw, thank you. 

Doug: I keep joking about this, like, we almost didn’t want this to come out. Because Howard has been this great secret of ours. It’s like, we have all this great knowledge. [laughs] The stupid selfish part of me doesn’t want to share that with the rest of the world. And then the more magnanimous, optimistic, better side of me is, like, “No, everybody should learn from Howard, and maybe we’ll have better movies and better stories told”

I mean, knowledge should be free for everybody. And I think I do think he has some good lessons for people and making movies. 

Well, thank you so much for not gatekeeping. [Everyone laughs.] 

Just looking over the “Power of Film” book, I know there’s so many chapters in there that you didn’t get to cover in this series, just from looking over the episode list. How did you make the decisions of what to include and what to cut from the series?

 Laura: I would say that it was it was a process for sure. And that that early on, Howard spent a lot of time thinking about what he wanted to include what he thought was, like, essential in the series, and he worked closely with another former TA and student of his, Joey Sierra. And with Doug and me too—just figuring out, what if you had to come up with “Howard’s Greatest Hits?” What are they? And it was really thinking about it like that, but I think Howard had a really strong instinct about what needs to be in it and what he didn’t have to include. 

And of course, we cut a lot out—our episodes were far longer and even had a seventh episode for a while. So then it was just really a process of, what you do in any kind of edit, is how do we make this whole together? And this specific episode works structurally? Is it modulating? Is it coming up and down?  How do we end it? How do we bring these ideas together? So, we applied the same principles that Howard talks about in his classes and in the series to cutting the documentary. Doug can speak about that a little bit more than I can, because he really did a lot of the heavy lifting on the edit.

Doug: Well, I mean, I would say exactly what you said, Laura. There’s definitely some “greatest hits” that are on the cutting room floor. But for the most part, I think we touched on anybody who studied with Howard, I think we touched on some of the more memorable, [both laugh] popular and memorable teachings. 

[Both continue to laugh.] I just realized that, my God, it’s like, completely meta here.

But seriously, it’s true. I don’t want to go into all the details, but there were things that we wished we could have gotten in that we couldn’t, but that’s normal for any edit.

And there were times that we would, we would get into trouble, like we would edit a section. It might be like seven minutes long and be very complicated. And we didn’t have the right examples from movies, it just, it sort of fell on under its own weight. And Howard would be the first one to say, “God, that’s just not working. Let’s try this other movie. Let’s try this other example. Let’s do this. Let’s do that. Or let’s just cut it out.” 

And in the last year or two, we got very bold, and we were like, “No, less is more. Let’s just cut out the whole section. We’re gonna miss it, but it’s okay. It’s a better episode.” You know, leaner and leaner. There was a lot of back-and-forth, and, simply put, we had the ability to get some voiceovers from Howard after we had filmed. We filmed them on a soundstage for six days. And that represents the six episodes generally, although we borrowed from many across the episodes.

And that’s how that worked. And then as we were editing sometimes it’d be like, “Oh, wow, that’s the wrong film example.”—Howard would say that. So we’d say, “Well, let’s switch film examples. And maybe you could give us a few new words with a voiceover that we could, you know, fit in there, so that it makes sense, and that we are talking about that film.” And there was a fair amount of back-and-forth like that.

I would definitely say that the “Trapped” episode resonated with me a lot, because based on the film’s you picked, I really did feel the claustrophobia versus just having an explained to me—there was such good selections in there. Was there anything that you wanted to include in that episode, but couldn’t?

Doug: That’s one of his clearest, biggest points. It’s interesting, because when he when he had reached 50 years of teaching at UCLA, which is a lot of years for any professor—it’s a big deal. And there was a big celebration of his 50th year, and he gave this talk to all of his colleagues, and all a lot of his students came back, and it was a packed room, and he gave this talk for about a half hour. 

And at the end, he came to this conclusion of like, “You know, all the films I’ve studied and all the lectures I’ve given, everything I’ve looked at, I’ve really comes back down to this one idea of every movie is trapped, all the great movies are trapped.”

It is such a simple thing, it’s almost childlike, like, “Oh, you’re trapped, you’re gonna get out of the trap.” It was very profound, though, the way he delivered it, and I’ll never forget that. And that’s why episode two really lends that. So it’s very simple. I don’t think we’re, I don’t think we’ve missing anything on that idea, if you can really explain that. 

And you’ll see, in subsequent episodes, it comes back again, and again, like he can now use the word “trapped,” and we know what he’s talking about with other characters. He talks about different ways to set up traps, and he gets more and more complicated and deep as the series goes on. 

Laura: And again, the reason that’s so powerful is it because exactly what he says we it resonates with us, because we all have our own traps in our own lives, we all feel trapped, right? So it immediately just hits you emotionally, right? And we’re all trying to get out of those traps to a certain degree. And then we landed in a new one, and we go to movies to watch people get out of their traps. I mean, it’s, it’s psychologically very powerful for an audience to see that happen. 

Episodes one through three of “The Power of Film” are now available to watch on the Watch TCM app for a limited time. New episodes are now airing on Thursdays at at 8 pm EST/5 pm PST through February 8th.